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Finding the right property
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orchidius
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19 May ’14 - 1:59 pm
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Hi there,

As some of you might have read in the introduction section of the board, I'm considering homesteading as a long-term plan for my life. I've been doing a lot of research and reading a lot of books. John Seymour makes note of the one-acre farm and the five-acre farm in "the self-sufficient life and how to live it". His reasoning makes a lot of sense, and he also notes that having more land increases your flexibility, but not necessarily your production. While this might be true, he does leave the reader with two big questions I'm hoping you guys could shed some light on.

1. Starting capital

While living self-sufficiently on homesteads like the one described by John Seymour seems very doable, starting one up seems a tough nut to crack. You "make" enough food and other resources for your family to live comfortably, and some surplus to be sold for a little profit that then goes to some of the costs you're bound to have (tools, emergencies, small luxuries,...). He doesn't talk about aquiring the homestead in the first place at all though. If you buy it "ready to go" there's a huge upfront cost. If you buy land, tools and materials to build the homestead yourself there's still a big upfront cost. One could loan money for this purpose, but then you would have to pay back the bank with no guaranteed source of income. This would only result in a ton more stress I would think.

Are most all homesteaders people that bought land a fair while back when it was really affordable? Are they people who have had a succesful career, have the funds but want a different lifestyle? How do they do it?

2. Finding the property

I'm based in Belgium, Europe myself. There's about 12,000,000 of us Belgians living in a country the size of MD, meaning the whole country is pretty much urban or sub-urban country and all the rest is dedicated nature reserve or commercial farmland. Even one acre is considered a mass of land, and the only private properties that I know of of that area are owned by the ultra-rich.

So... how much land does the average homestead have? How much do you really need to run a succesful homestead that feeds the family well? I have considered moving to a different country, but for obvious reasons am hesitant. Are there countries known for their cheap/good land that are home to many homesteaders/self-sufficient communities?

 

Thanks!

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earthenstead
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19 May ’14 - 3:51 pm
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orchidius said
1. Starting capital

Are most all homesteaders people that bought land a fair while back when it was really affordable? Are they people who have had a succesful career, have the funds but want a different lifestyle? How do they do it?

 

There is no simple answer to this. Property can be of existing ownership, or acquired by purchase, inheritance, gifting by family, etc. Incomes (and ages) differ wildly.

 

orchidius said
2. Finding the property

I'm based in Belgium, Europe... how much land does the average homestead have? How much do you really need to run a succesful homestead that feeds the family well? I have considered moving to a different country, but for obvious reasons am hesitant. Are there countries known for their cheap/good land that are home to many homesteaders/self-sufficient communities?

 

Again, no simple answer. But you have only mentioned property size and not climate which can be a bigger determinant of success than property size. From the sound of Belgium's population density and land use, unless you can throw lots of money at it, you may have no option but looking elsewhere.

 

While you may get suggestions to point you in the right direction, the task of researching your options still falls mainly on you. It is not a glamorous or romantic notion and is not discussed enough, but it all starts and ends with educating yourself. If you want to make a go of this, learn, learn, learn.

 

I spent over 2 years learning before buying property. It is a large commitment, and not something to hurry. Joining in the conversation here is a good starting point. Laugh

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orchidius
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19 May ’14 - 4:24 pm
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Thanks for your input, and you make some good points. I know my questions have no simple answers, but it is my hope that by getting as many people to chime in, I could get a better overview.

It is also true that I won't be able to stay in Belgium with this plan unless I can throw some serious money at it. One major unknown here is the size "required" to live off land comfortably. One acre might not be completely undoable in some parts of the country, but I'm doubtful this kind of acreage will suffice for comfortable living. A big point to consider is that it would be easier for me to run side-businesses or even get a part-time job staying in Belgium. If I were to move to France for example, not only would I be further away from family and friends (not the worst), but finding labour and starting a business would be a major PITA, not to mention tax- and other paperwork I would still have to file in Belgium...

Climate is another great point you make. I considered adding it into the equation, but figured it might make for a too complicated post to begin with. But now that you mention it... Much of the more affordable regions of the world have completely different climates. Most sources of information I find are from moderate climates. Makes sense, you don't think of Africans or Polynesians writing about homesteading... Even some countries closer to home like Spain are very affordable now, but completely different in climate. I've read of communities of people taking residence in abandoned villages and making it work there (apparently there is a law that if you move into a property and nobody kicks you out in 10 years you own it or something), but is it very feasable? Same goes for tropical countries like some of the regions in the Pacific. Is there any information on that? It seems like most of what I've read so far won't work there... I've worked in the cattle industry in Australia and traveled there extensively. Homesteading in some of those parts seems as easy as doing so in Alaska...

Of course research is key, and to be quite honest this post is part of the first stage. I've done a bunch of reading, and I still feel like this might be something I might be interested in on the long haul. But I'm stuck with the feeling that it's not really realistic for "starters" in life. That it's only feasable for people that have some financial reserves, or land to begin with. I'm not at all saying I'm looking for "easy", but I might well opt for something alltogether different if I'm faced with a decade of financial head/heartaches and potential malnutrition before I can get out of debt and make it work...

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earthenstead
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19 May ’14 - 8:28 pm
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I confess that I have not read the books you mention. Like you, I am skeptical. One of the key benefits of Homesteading and self sufficient living is eliminating as much dependance on resources outside of what you can accomplish yourself on your property as possible. It also means being able to live off a smaller income.

Let's take the example of living on 1 acre and of 1 resource: water. Your potential options are municipal water, a well, and rainwater harvesting. Municipal water keeps you dependent on an outside resource with a monthly bill that fluctuates with your water use and with political influences outside your control. A well costs upfront either to acquire preexisting on the property or to install. Once installed, you are then dependent on the aquifer that you are drawing from and vulnerable to any leaching of contaminates from the surrounding area. It is also possible for certain wells to run dry. Rainwater harvesting comes down to collection surface area, and storage capacity. On 1 acre, you would be limited in space unless you bury your water storage going deeper than you go broad. Municipal and well water also take up space and have piping running underground.

 

Another example on 1 acre: waste (poop, not trash) management. Municipal pipes it away for a monthly bill. Septic takes up lots of space underground and is a major expense if anything goes wrong. Composting takes up space, but much less than septic, and after a year produces a useful end product.

 

On 1 acre, you will want "economy of scale" type production. Meaning, low investment to high yield ratios. Minimal space, time, and money in, maximum yield and value out. So you will want animals that do not take up too much space, do not consume too much, or produce more waste than you can manage within the boundaries of your property. Chickens, turkeys, rabbits, bees, goats would be a good start. Fish too. You will want to cover your bases nutritionally which necessitates some diversity. For crops, an Aquaponics greenhouse that employs vertical farming will produce the highest yield in a small space and for a much longer growing season than traditional in ground row cropping. You also get fish out of it. Because plant roots are not fighting for soil nutrients, they can be spaced closer together. They grow larger and faster because there is no stunting from competition and they are getting a regular supply of rich nutrients. The growing season is longer because it is more controlled environment. Add vertical farming to that and instead of growing square footage of crops, you are growing cubic footage.

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ashleigh11
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20 May ’14 - 9:56 am
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don't forget that john seymour also talks about the "farm behind the wall", essentially self-sufficient living on a city lot.  bees may be the largest livestock you keep.  maybe chickens.  

you may have to change what your definition of self-sufficient is.  growing and making everything you need and being off the grid is a romantic ideal, but not possible for a lot of people.  i think making a surplus of something and bartering for what you need is a good definition of self sufficiency.  i want a market garden farm with a few animals.  in the meantime, my first step of self-sufficiency is being debt free.  we moved into a cheaper house (paid cash-no mortgage), closer to work,school, and church to save money on gas (we were spending $400 a month).  we didn't have any credit card debt, but i have student loan debt.  we are chipping away at that next.  my journey to self sufficiency, right now, is about not being beholden to anyone.  it won't make a sexy coffee table book with romantic paintings like john seymour's, but it's my story and i'm liking it.  

by the way, john seymour has inspired me, so i am in no way criticizing him or his writings.  i've just tried to make his principles my own.

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K
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20 May ’14 - 10:51 am
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Ash brings up a good point, a lot of the books that are out there dictate how much land, growing principles etc. But everyone's situation is different.

I try not to adhere to one thought process to much and experiment trying to find out what works for our particular situation we are in.

How much land and such needed really is dictated by what you want to accomplish, want a dairy cow? More land for grazing, hay production, etc.A dairy goat would be a lot less required.

What type of gardening? Bio-intensive, traditional, permaculture? Again if you listen to the professionals, they will argue why their method is the best.

Personally, I think experimentation is half the fun, seeing what works and what doesn't.

As far as location, that's a hard question.Even here in the states costs of land, govt oversite, taxes, etc will makes a difference as far as what would be a ideal location to start a self-sufficient lifestyle. Heck, michigan just basically made it impossible for anyone to urban homestead which totally blows my mind away.

Earth also brings up a good point, trying to be 100 percent self- sutaining is very difficult,we had a thread on here about division of labor versus doing everything yourself. Instead of raising animals due to space restrictions, going full bore on gardens to raise extra produce to barter with for meat and dairy or sell at a farmers market etc. 

Sounds like you have some construction experience, bartering some of that work away for something you can't raise yourself.

Don't get overwhelmed though, it is very easy to, I would sit down and write out what it is you hope to accomplish, build you're own home? Use alternative methods? Breed pigs? Etc. 

Seymours book is a great resource as far as how much land is needed for some of those items. Figure out how much land is needed for what you want to accomplish. It makes no sense to have a 100 acres if you just want to breed rabbits, chickens, have a small orchard, raised beds and a apiary.

I did a blog post on some different layouts and such

http://thehomesteadi.....ufficient/

One good thing you have going for you is your youth, it goes by so fast though, and I am envious of you for it.

Sorry for rambling!

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ashleigh11
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20 May ’14 - 10:58 am
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you'll have to forgive me, i'm posting between baby feedings and toddler tantrums-today's my day off and the wife is running errands.

take the bees for example.  they make honey for you, and the surplus can be sold.  the wax left over from extraction can be used for other things. a friend of mine does this.  he's the most manly man you'll ever meet, but he makes skin care products in the winter when the rest of his small farm has slowed down. he buys the tins and tubes from a wholesaler and spends the winter "cooking" in his kitchen.  during the sping and summer, you could grow wildflowers and herbs, which the bees would ensure good pollination- and also increase honey production.  wildflowers could be sold as arrangements, herbs for cooking or made into essential oils. my friend has a modest lavender crop which he sells to a local hippy soap and oil shop.

i always keep in mind sepp holzer.  he's the premier voice of self sufficiency and permaculture...and he built it all on property no one else wanted, on a mountainside in austria.  he took infertile land that drained too fast and leached nutrients, and built a profitable farm.  he turned his inventive ideas like hugelkultur, terracing, and symbiotic planting into a whole method of self sufficient farming.  i believe you and i are just as smart as sepp.  given a set of problems and tools we can figure out ways to be self sufficient and happy!

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farmboy2
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20 May ’14 - 11:09 am
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1. Starting capital ....... How do they do it?

 

 could happen many different ways. Some are given the land from their family, some save all they can to buy it. Some take out loans to buy the land/house. Some people sell their big house in the city and buy land/house in country. It can happen so many ways.

 

  Part of being self sufficient is having no money owed. So try to find a way to live as cheaply as possible. If you live by yourself or you and your spouse, you'd be amazed at the size space you can live in and still be comfortable. People have been down-sizing since 2008 as they just want some sort of financial stress relief. By living smaller, they are able to save money to accomplish their goals.

 

  

 

   "how much land does the average homestead have? How much do you really need to run a succesful homestead that feeds the family well?"

 

  You can really do a lot if you try with as little as 1/4 - 1/2 acre.

 

   

 

    

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